Teaching and Learning Stories from the Field, a podcast from the Teaching & Learning Centre at Seneca College Episode 3: Unique Approaches to Online Math Assessment Transcript Arushi Manners 0:07
Welcome to episode three of "Teaching and Learning Stories from the Field" from the Seneca Teaching & Learning Center. Today, we will hear from Kevin Pitts, a fellow colleague at the Teaching & Learning Center. Kevin's responsibilities within the Center includes teaching in the Faculty Development Program, consulting with faculty on curriculum design and development, particularly in the areas of online and blended learning, and providing expertise in educational technology in relation to special project initiatives. Kevin is also passionate about international development, and on a recent sabbatical, Kevin spent two months in Africa, where he taught advanced research methods and teaching and learning seminar to inspiring scholars at Bahir Dar University in Ethiopia, as part of an Academics Without Borders projects. So Kevin will be telling his story about his time spent in Africa, and we'll also talk about his use of authentic teaching and learning strategies in the mathematics classroom.

Hello and welcome everyone to our third episode of "Teaching and Learning Stories from the Field," a podcast by the Teaching & Learning Center at Seneca College. I'm Arushi Manners and I'm joined by my co-host Jenn Peters. Today, we'll be interviewing Kevin Pitts who is a professor at the Teaching & Learning Center with the both of us. Kevin has a broad range of experience in the fields of adult and online education, so we're excited and curious to draw from some of his experiences there. He is also involved in faculty development, and teaches some math courses at Seneca for our School of Business.

So Kevin, before we dive into talking about authentic assessment in a mathematics classroom and what that looks like in an online space, I was really curious from reading your bio about the work that you've done with Academics Without Borders, as part of your PD leave, and what impact did that have, not only on the communities that you worked with, but also what have you brought back into your work at Seneca. A long-winded question for you, there.

Kevin Pitts 2:19
Thanks for inviting me today. It's really great to be with you today and sure, I can happy to talk about my experience there. It was a wonderful experience. I just wanted to let everyone know that Seneca is a member now of Academics Without Borders, and that any Seneca community member is able to initiate projects, should they wish, and be involved that way as well. So I think it's an awesome opportunity as we expand our global reach and Seneca really has a huge reputation internationally. And it's just another way to give back as well. So my project with Academics Without Borders was to go to a university called Bahir Dar University in Ethiopia, which is on the - Bahir Dar is a town on the shores of Lake Tana, which is a source of the Nile, it's a wonderful spot, and what they, the University there was just initiating a brand new program, and they needed some help for their faculty, specifically around teaching seminars. So, the big thing here is that everybody, as I go around the world and talk to people, is that you're dealing with the same issues. It's not a North American issue. It's not a development, developing world issue, it's a global issue, and so everyone needs more training around teaching, teaching and learning pedagogy. Those types of things. And so that was my focus there. I spent some six weeks there, teaching short courses. One was on a teaching and learning seminar to help PhD students who are becoming future professors to talk about teaching methods and teaching and how that can be done. Another course I did was a little bit on research, because they were finishing their PhD programs or helped a little bit with that as well, But the focus really was on improving capacity around teaching and learning.

Arushi Manners 4:20
That sounds so wonderful and exciting, and I'm sure that our faculty will be interested to learn that they can also initiate some of these Academics Without Borders projects. And so moving into your role with teaching mathematics, how would you describe sort of your core philosophy when it comes to teaching and assessment and math?

Kevin Pitts 4:42
Okay. I think if I think about math. It's to get around the notion of math as a process, and just think of it more as a discipline where we're trying to help people use that kind of logical thinking and critical thinking skills that math helps to build, to solve problems. So, it's the application of the math concepts, I think, is really, really important. And that's what I try to do I want to. There's an old notion that people talk about math not as a spectator sport. So it's a way to have folks engage with math, to practice math, to apply it to real world situations. I know people, roll their eyes around the quote/unquote real world situations, but I think it's really important. We use math every day. Instead, we may not realize it. Students have a lot of anxiety about math and I don't think the anxiety comes from the math itself, because we have an innate ability to do math as humans, but I think it comes from the way it's been taught. And so my goal is to want everyone that comes into the classroom to love math, to appreciate math, to use math in their day to day lives.

Arushi Manners 5:58
I love that, especially from my own experiences being in the classroom. A lot of when you're teaching sort of content-heavy or theory-heavy subjects, a lot of the questions you get from students is, "when will I ever need to use this?" So, definitely building in some of the real-world applications is so useful. And how did you manage to continue doing that as we moved to online learning? Did your approach to teaching maths change within the online space?

Kevin Pitts 6:28
Well the pandemic was definitely a catalyst for this, and it's been a catalyst for everyone, but I think this, you know, with every challenge ,we have a great deal of opportunity and I think one of the things that the pandemic is has us do is force us to rethink what we're doing. I think that's a positive thing. And so, I have had already been looking at different ways to approach math, but tradition seems to hang on a long time and it's - sometimes change is difficult, those types of things. So it's been a slow process, but the catalyst of the pandemic has certainly sped things up a little bit, accelerated that process. So yeah, I'm looking at math more as, I mean, when we think about education, we're moving the focus away from the class. You know, in the past, we always thought about okay if our class was on a Wednesday, then we'll talk about going from class to class. Now, we're looking with kind of like the week of instruction. So we're beginning this week, what are we going to do this week, and it's not just in-class. It's, what are we doing outside of class? And so, we're really looking at a blended modality. So we've not in the traditional sense. Traditional blending means that you have some in-class stuff and some out-of-class stuff. Now that we're completely online, we're really talking about blended learning in terms of asynchronous and synchronous components to a course. And there's a new term that's cropped up recently called Bichronous Learning, which is interesting and I think that'll probably stick around a little bit to describe that. But my focus is now, what, how am I going to take the students on a learning journey from week to week? So, we don't begin the class when we have time together synchronously. We begin it earlier, and so what are usually our first foray is in an asynchronous environment. So we say okay, how do I get students engaged? What are they going to be doing asynchronously? What, how are they going to be thinking? Then, how are they going to be interacting with students? With me? Doing work? So that when we come together in our classroom time, if we do have a synchronous component, and I still do, I still have about an hour a week that I meet with students. How do we use that optimally? Because that becomes premium time with students. So what do we do? What do we do before class? What we do after class? And this whole concept of "learning flow." So learning flow means, you know, as I as I do something asynchronously, how does that apply to when it comes back into the classroom? How do we build on that? How do we extend that so when they finish our session when we're all together, what do they go off and do after that session? So the flow... Think of it like a wave, flowing through week to week, building towards those learning outcomes. So there's lots of, lots of skills that and things that are really really important that need to be honed as we do that, and also it's a learning process not just for us as faculty. It's very much a learning process for students as well because they're not may not be used to this. And so how do we communicate that plan to them? How do we help them and guide them through that process until they become familiar with it? I think, in future, this is going to be the way it's turned out to be. That blended Bichronous learning will become more than norm than the exception, perhaps, and then but we'll see. You never know, as things go on. I think it's really been a benefit for us to rethink and reconceptualize what we're doing.

Arushi Manners 10:09
I really appreciate your bringing up that term Bichronous learning. It's it's been around everywhere so far. So thanks for sort of flagging that up. And your concept of learning flow, where you're not necessarily taking sort of a lesson as a unit, but you're really looking at sort of the broader units of learning and making connections, you know, to the daily lives of students. I think from, from what you've said, now more than ever, it's, it's really that partnership with students as you're guiding them through, you're working with them in a real sense, and to learn together in this space. So I'm thinking about any specific strategies that you're using, whether they're focused on technology or pedagogy. Are there any specific strategies that you'd like to share that sort of facilitate this learning flow that you were talking about?

Kevin Pitts 11:01
Preparation is key. So strategy is ans I use learning modules and I do weekly learning modules, so preparing those and then, guiding the students through that. So they always have a structure to them. And I use a common structure where I'm looking at the overview and outcomes first that I invite students to take a look at. Then I look at some more like independent learning type of things. Like there might be something like a video to look at. And not just to watch, but watch it actively. So you're seeing, you know, in this video, take a look at how this is done and reflected back on how you have done it maybe in the past or how it might be relevant in your everyday life. And the from that, some content there may I want them to be active. So I say well here's an activity, I'll try this, you know and apply what you've learned and see what happens. And then, self-assess yourself. You know, take a look at what you've learned and maybe try this little self-assessment quiz or this activity, whatever. What did you find out? Have you got it? Do you need a little bit more help? And and so that it's that kind of kind of going through independent learning and then I also then say, well, let's now discuss it in the larger group. So maybe we go to a discussion board or maybe we go to a collaborative document and do something that way. So I'm - we're moving out of independent learning into more asynchronous, and there's a huge difference and a lot of people confuse them. What's independent learning versus asynchronous? In the asynchronous world, we want to really have a similar experience for students that you might get in the classroom, even if it's a different time. So how are they interacting? So it's more of a collaborative-type activities there. And so, and then when we get together, in the synchronous part, and look at that and say, Well, okay, how did, how's everybody doing? What did you learn? Where are the bottlenecks? Were you struggling? What's affirming? You know, those types of things and so the synchronous time is not a lecture. I know folks tend to always want to do what they've done in the classroom and convert that to the online environment. We really have to think about those synchronous times as a seminars, not lectures. And then so it's really helping those students, dealing with their issues from, from a concept of immediacy. So the synchronous time does give us a little bit more, if you look at it from the lens of immediacy, we can deal with those issues right away. Whereas asynchronously, we may not be able to get the immediate response that they want. However, there is a different lens that we can apply to asynchronous, the notion of complexity. So in an asynchronous task, we can really step it up a little bit with students, And say, go deep dive into this. You've got time on your own to explore it, dive a little deeper, maybe we'll go into a little bit more complex questions. And then when we come together in the synchronous time, we can then deal with those complexities and get the immediate feedback that you need. So there's definitely advantages to each of those. And I forgotten your question so maybe I'm rambling too much, but I hope I answered it.

Arushi Manners 14:08
No, absolutely. I really appreciate some of the distinctions you've made between synchronous teaching and asynchronous learning, and sort of how to treat both of those spaces, but also highlighting some of the differences between that independent learning and asynchronous learning and how they're not really the same thing. I want to pick up on something you said about self-assessment. For me, I love using self-assessments personally. And I think the struggle comes when you're trying to make sure that they're a meaningful event for students, and really playing with guiding them through that sort of metacognitive piece on, you know, assessing yourself, and then planning what to do from there from the feedback that you've got from that self-assessment. So, I'd really love to know more about sort of how you use self-assessment and what level of guidance you provide students in sort of making meaning from that experience.

Kevin Pitts 15:05
Sure, yeah. So I, as I said, I used some self-assessment as a way for students to take small chunks. So very much on a formative process here. So, you know, as I scaffold the learning, take one outcome, one objective, whatever you want to call it, and then apply it, and see if you've got it. And so I'm looking for more mastery with the self-assessment. So, as I provide these self assessments, can the students get to a stage where they mastered that particular objective? And in math, there's a lot of skill sets required, and it's the integrating of those skill sets, because they build on one another, and so you really need to sort of push it to a more more of a mastery level. So, I want them to kind of check on their own, in a safe, comfortable way. If they're self-assessing, they're not, you know, me looking at the mark. They're not out there, you know, in a classroom environment. They feel maybe a little bit reticent. Yes, low risk, absolutely, thank you. And so that way they can gauge, where am I? You know. Where am I on this? And then, then we can bring in more formal assessment in there for them to verify for us, because we're using assessment, not just for valuing how a student's meeting that, but it's a helpful tool to help them learn. Right? Assessment as learning. Those types of things. So that's what I use it, I use it as a learning tool, not necessarily as an evaluation tool.

Jennifer Peters 16:37
We'll be back right after this.

Seneca is proud to be hosting the Advancing Learning Conference this year from June 8 to the 10th. The conference will be completely online, and this year's registration is free. Advancing Learning is the province's leading Educational Technology Conference since the 1990s. They work to foster an environment where educators come together to share their experiences with their colleagues. Their goal is to advance education in Ontario by learning from practicing educators about topics related to innovative educational technology, and its use in higher education. The theme of this year's conference is "Dare to be Curious," and it's about exploring, experimenting, and fostering creativity to deepen and enhance learning for our students. In keeping with the theme, we will have interactive and hands-on sessions, many opportunities for sharing and discussion with colleagues from across the province, and engaging keynote speakers. Visit the conference website at AdvancingLearning.ca. If you would like to submit a session proposal, the forum will be open until April 19th. Hope to see you at this year's Advancing Learning conference hosted by Seneca. And now back to our story.

Arushi Manners 17:52
What's been the reception from students and have you gotten some feedback from them around how they're using these sorts of formative assessment tools, whether it's self-assessment or peer assessment, if you use that?

Kevin Pitts 18:06
Yeah. Now there's always, for the most part it's been it's been positive and students really do appreciate the effort that we put into a couple of things. Making content for them that's relevant to for them. Making it personal. There's a lot of content out there, and we still also use that in math, that is developed by others, which is great, that's wonderful content. They really do like it when it's a personal connection, though. So it's almost like the same voices. I'm hearing when I'm at a synchronous session. It's the same mistakes that I say in terms of my, how I'm phrasing something. So, but they like it you know, because it's more, it's more of a community that way. And it doesn't have to. one thing I tell faculty is, it doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be authentic. It's you out there helping your students, and we're in it together. And so on the assessment side, the reception has been really good. Move more to formative assessment than summative still is this a little bit of obviously some summative, but it's more of a balanced assessment model, so that we're not just relying on, you know, in the past, oh here's two midterms and a final. We're, we're breaking it up, we're doing different types of assessment. I do use some traditional assessment. Absolutely! Quizzes here. One of the things math teachers are like is they really help hold on to do traditional a little bit, but there's also value in traditional assessments. We don't want to abandon tried and trued methods, but we want to expand on those and change it up a little bit. You know, give them an alternative and this really speaks to things like Universal Design for Learning when you change your different ways of engagement, different ways of action and expression. So, providing a quiz is fine. Doing more formative so they can build their assessment, they can see, give them a sense of how they're doing early on. And work on that. And then do different alternative types of assessment so that they start to explore other parts of their creativity. So, I have an assignment that I use. I break it up into a couple of parts. And the goal is for them to, in groups, it's a group assignment. And what they want to do is, as a group, come up with their own ultimate exam question. So that they can start to think about how are these concepts integrated. Design that question. And then share it with the other students. So each group publishes on a Wiki in Blackboard. I use Blackboard. And then they get to look at each other's questions that they've designed and then comment. So, use the rubric that's designed for that assessment and then evaluate - not, I don't say evaluating peers, because but they're just giving feedback to their peers about what they thought. How easy was it for them as a learner of that task that they publish to to read it, to understand it, and then maybe give them some feedback about things to change. So that they're collaborating, not only on designing, but they're also collaborating on assessing ways to make it better. And then the second part of the assignment and the second half of course is then how can you go from a text-based Wiki that has a traditional math question that they've designed and then move it into more of a learning tool. And so I asked them to create a video explaining the question, etc. and presenting something for their colleagues and their peers around that assessment. And the goal of that, at the end, is that they have, we have all these assets that are student-created. Not by me, they're student-created for other students. And then I always ask them, would you mind if I share these with the future cohorts and then invariably the answer is, "absolutely, we'd love that! Yes please share it." And what I find is that the students put a lot more effort into designing and creating and commenting and creating these videos because they know their peers are watching and it's not just for me. It's for their peers as well. So, they feel this sort of an obligation to make the best it possibly can be. And I've just finished marking or just in the midst of marking the first set of assignments and I'm always surprised. I don't know why I should say I'm surprised, but I'm always really happy with the results in terms of what, how creative they are with these questions. And go, wow! That's a great question. I could use it. But maybe I'll ask them, Hey, should we put this on the, on the final.

Arushi Manners 22:43
I love that you've mentioned that because I was diving into some literature on constructive alignments and authentic assessments. And one of the things that Biggs has said when he implemented portfolio assessments in one of his Bachelor of Education classes, and one of his reflections was exactly what you said. They're sort of surprised about the high quality of the work and their relevance to the lives of the students, and a nice bonus he said was that student ratings for that course were the best he'd ever obtained using these sort of authentic assessment strategies and tools. So thanks for sharing that. And one of the things that struck me from what you were saying about sort of this shift into synchronous learning was really trying to shed our old ways of doing things, where one of the challenges might be, you know, putting on that traditional lecture style event in a synchronous space. So, I think for instructors, one of the things we're thinking about is how can we present material that's not just lecture-based in an online environment, but think about these other ways to do things, and you're really pushing students to do exactly the same thing with their assessment. And, you know, how can you show me you've learned something coming back to principles of UDL. That's sort of breaks away from the more traditional test- and quiz-based modes. So thanks for sharing, Kevin, all of those different sort of strategies as well. I'm wondering if you were to sort of bring in other math instructors at Seneca to use some of these strategies, what do you think their reception might be, and how might you facilitate that process?

Kevin Pitts 24:39
Yeah, so I mean, one of the benefits, too, of going online from the pandemic is we've actually done exactly that. In one of the courses I teach for School of International Business math course, we've got the faculty teaching that and we meet regularly, and then we talk about. Here's what you can include. How should we do this? How should we do that? So that kind of sharing of ideas. And, what we do is we make a package. So here's the course package as it exists now. And that's shared with all the instructors, and then they can they can then use. We can all benefit from each other's ideas around assessment, and also share the share the load in terms of creating and rubrics and. As mentioned earlier, creating these things, does take a little bit of time and there's much more, much more need to be explicit and all the other parts of assessment, which, which is really really important and really really good. So that, you know, you got the rubric and they've got the detailed instructions, etc. and so we can we can collaborate from a faculty perspective, which I think is wonderful. I just want to say that, you know, these ideas I borrow from everybody else, too! They are not my own. I wanted to say that, you know, one of the things that we do as educators, I think, is to share. The sharing culture and I think that's really come to light now as well and just, you know, as that continues, we'll be able to use each other's stuff and build on it and improve it, and and change it, for the local needs and I think that's great.

Arushi Manners 26:12
Yeah, as you say now more than ever, the value that exists in sharing and collaborating. I've definitely seen that. And so, do you think in our current climates during the pandemic, do you think it's revealed some of the flaws in our more traditional assessment systems?

Kevin Pitts 26:30
Sure, sure. Yeah, I mean, no assessment strategy is perfect, anyway. But I think what it's done is to first, if we look at it and really start to analyze it from a quality perspective as well, and from all the new research that's being done around learning, how people learn, and pedagogy and strategies around that. The whole notion of variety. I think that's where it's looked at. In the past, we might have been held on a little bit too much to, you know, as you said, a traditional assessment so that's like tests and papers, those types of things, but and not thought outside the box a little bit more around. How can we get alternative assessments in there? What are the different ways that students can show that they know what they know and to reach those learning outcomes? And of course, part of that is time, because it takes a little bit of time to think and create these new assessments. You know ,that has an impact on it. But I think we've started to look at we're structuring courses, how are we designing it, how are we moving away from lecture-based to more collaborative learning. How are we focusing on learning outcomes, how are we making sure that we align our assessments with our outcomes, and that there's variety of those assessments so students have multiple ways, multiple means to express their knowledge. I think that's really a benefit, and it's going to just continue as we go forward.

Arushi Manners 27:58
Absolutely. Time is a big factor as you mentioned. And also comfort level, because any of these new approaches and collaborative teaching and learning. There are many unknowns and that's that might be uncomfortable to begin with. So, yeah, absolutely. And what are some of the lessons that you've, you've learned as we've transitioned to online learning and as you've tried these new strategies for formative and summative assessments? What are the key lessons that you've learned and you'd like to share with us?

Kevin Pitts 28:28
Yeah. So, I mean, one of the big ones, is that you can never have too much communication, especially in the online environment. So spending time, ensuring that students get the instructions, explicit instructions. This is what's coming up. In multiple ways. So I use these strategies, like I have a weekly announcement that goes out. It starts that learning I talked about earlier on, do that early in the week, obviously. But then I reinforce that with, okay I create a to-do list. So hey, once you've got this, make sure you check off all these items that are there. And I make sure that the instructions for the assessments, etc. really are detailed and go exactly through it. I provide exemplars, too. So if I'm asking students to create this particular task, then I will provide a sample, so that they can see what the expectation is from there. And the other thing, a big lesson, too, is especially around assessment is, what we tend to do is we but we also get - I think a good point that you've raised, Arushi, around, not only time but also, you know, having spent some time learning and get comfortable with some these tools is an important part. So making sure that you do the assessment or the tasks that you are asking your students to do yourself. So that, you know, if it's a video, videos take a lot more time. It's a lot more structure around scripting, around learning the tool, about editing and all those types of things. So have I always asked faculty or myself, have I done it first? So I know what the task is and so I can, I can gauge that. I don't want to make it an onerous task so that we're not getting an outcome that is necessary, which is more concerned about how to create a good video. I think there's a value in both. I really did see the outcome that's the most important part, around the discipline. So, communication is key. Doing it. Making sure that you go through the process yourself so you know the student experience is like. The other thing is, and I found this too, been guilty as well as full, full disclosure here. If you try to start to add on assessments and not think about assessments that you can take away. So you think, "Oh, this will be a great assessment. I'll add it on to the next," and then it becomes just too much for students. Too much for us, too, to mark it, to do it. So, really important lesson is: What assessments can be removed from the course and replace with a more authentic and more alternative authentic assessment, as well, that will make the learning better for students and I think that's another important one.

Arushi Manners 31:13
I especially love that you that you've mentioned sort of going through that assessment process yourself to get, you know, an insight into what the student experience might be like, because for me, definitely doing that, it's revealed some of my own assumptions about what students might know. And as a result, my instructions are better and sort of the way I guide them through a particular task is better. So definitely going through the some of the things that we're expecting our students to do is key. And so from this things that you've learned, what might be say your top tip to faculty that you'd want to give in relation to online math assessment?

Kevin Pitts 31:56
Okay. So one of the things I think for, as faculty, and for all of us, is that we don't know what we don't know. Right so one of the things is top tip is PD for sure: professional development. Find out what are the what are other folks doing. What is the latest on math assessment? Doing a little bit of work. We're all researchers at heart and we want to always get improvement for, etc. So, you want to explore that. And then spent some time thinking about what are the alternatives? So we become aware. So awareness-raising I think is really really important. So that's a top tip. Is just to keep current continue with your professional development, find out what's going on. Another tip is don't be afraid to try stuff, even if it fails miserably. And I'm coming from experience on that one, too, so you know like thinks that you're trying to go. "Oh, that didn't work". But don't give up right. So it's like, maybe there was something missing. Maybe it's the instructions. Maybe it's the way it was done. Maybe it was the time on the semester that was done, etc. So I always have a rule of three and I do, I do a lot of rules a three in education a lot. It's one of the things is, I always think education is great. Everything good in education comes in threes. So I always say okay give it three tries. Right. So the first tried didn't work, fix something that you thought was a little bit wonky. Try it again. If it still doesn't, you know, refine it again. And after the third attempt, if it still doesn't work well, abandon that one go on to something else. But don't be afraid to try it and invariably I found the failures are a lot less than the successes. And students really do appreciate the trying that we do. Trying something new. And helping them try something new because they might have. And again, students are a little bit reticent sometimes too. You know, when you, just give me a quiz and I'll be happy with that. You say, "no, no, let's explore this a little bit deeper. Let's try some new skills. Let's build on that." And I think in the end, especially when at the end they go, "yeah you know, what that was, that was fun task. I really enjoyed doing that. It really helped me to integrate all the things, concepts together." So that's, you know, a couple of tips there.

Arushi Manners 34:13
I love the rule of three. It really sort of makes teaching because this inquiry and iterative process where you can sort of bring in your students' feedback, you know, between each stage and, and I love it, it turns it into research. Do you have any final favourite anecdotes or any closing comments that you'd like to share with us?

Kevin Pitts 34:35
Informal feedback from students that comes at the end and it every all faculty get it. You get that email at the end that says, "you know what, I really enjoy doing so and so, whatever the task was. Or I really felt that this helped me do this or that," and from a faculty perspective that's really what it's all about. That we get those, those little nuggets in there. Occasionally, you get nuggets the other way around, but that helps you change things as well. But for the most part that student feedback at the end that says, "that helped." And, you know, that's what it's all about. And that that buoys us for the next go-around. Because that's, that's what really makes it all worthwhile at the end for teaching life.

Arushi Manners 35:23
Kevin, thank you so much for joining us. I've learned a lot from having you on our podcast and I think moving forward, I'll definitely be employing your rule of three.

Kevin Pitts 35:33
Thank you, Arushi. I had a lot of fun with this. And thank you for inviting me. I hope it was useful and I enjoyed talking to you today.

Arushi Manners 35:46
So that was Kevin's story about authentic teaching and learning strategies in the mathematics classroom. In the next episode, we will be hearing from Siobhan Bell, and we'll be talking about different ed tech tools. Watch out for our next episode releasing at the end of the month. Thanks for joining us, and see you next time on "Teaching and Learning Stories from the Field."

Transcribed by https://otter.ai